FAMU law school grads continue have trouble passing the Florida Bar exam on the their first try. Eleven of 21 students who took the test in February passed, a dismal success rate of 52.4 percent, according to results released Monday. That's down from 57.1 percent for FAMU grads in February 2006 and 52.9 percent in July 2006.As the law school seeks accreditation, that's not good news. Only Nova Southeastern University in Ft. Lauderdale had a lower first time pass rate, 48 percernt of its grads passed.
Meanwhile, Florida International University which was opened its doors the same time as FAMU had a pass rate of 94.4 percent, which was the best pass rate in the state. The University of Florida had a pass rate of 83.8 percent, while FSU had a pass rate of 88.2 percent.
Recruitment, retention and bar passage are three major areas of concern identified by the American Bar Association's accreditation team at FAMU Law.
Among the nation's six HBCU Law School's the FAMU first time bar passage rate would place it among the third best behind NCCU (71.8%) and Texas Southern (54.5%). Howard (52.1%), University of Distrct of Columbia (36.4%) and Southern University (34%) all had lower first time passage rates than FAMU, according to the 2007 raw data of bar passage rates.
To be fair, when you calculate those who retook the bar exam, the bar passage rate at Southern University improved to 83%. The same is probabaly true for the other law schools at HBCUs.
Low morale and infighting at FAMU Law
Leadership Crisis at FAMU Law
More Chaos at FAMU Law
Things are going to get better. We will focus on hiring professors who are members of the Florida bar and have experience with the practice of law. This is a time to focus on good, not bad. Dr. Ammons is on top of this and will square things away. We have produced eleven more lawyers who will have the FAMU degree. That's a good thing.
ReplyDeleteThey will have to get better, if not, they're screwed.
ReplyDeleteA little attention from the main campus and a new president who has some experience running a law school should help a great deal.
ReplyDeleteWe absolutely cannot compare our passage rates with that of the schools on the lower end. In addition, those schools are already fully accredited. The Florida Bar and the ABA will not lower their standards just for this law school. No one at FAMU would want that badge of inferiority anyway. FIU started at the same time that FAMU did and now they are No. 1 and fully accredited. This is not a good thing. Instead of the ridiculous fighting that has been occuring in Tallahassee and the failure to give autonomy and funds to the laws school so that it can be properly operated as a top school, they have been playing games and the students are on the losing end of their foolishness.
ReplyDeleteNCCU's Law School doesn't rank on the low end in terms of bar passage rate. In fact its first-time passage passage rate is on par with Florida State.
ReplyDeleteYes, we've suffered two years under Castell who doesn't think Black kids ought to have graduate/professional education. Now we're getting someone who vaules it. Things will begin to look up soon.
Things are going to get better. We will focus on hiring professors who are members of the Florida bar and have experience with the practice of law. This is a time to focus on good, not bad.
ReplyDeleteFunny, this is exactly not the trategy that FIU and FSU have taken. FSU College of Law does not have one single member of tjhe Florida bar on its faculty, yet it has the second highest bar passage rate. Most FIU faculty are not members of the Florida Bar.
NCCU's Law School doesn't rank on the low end in terms of bar passage rate. In fact its first-time passage passage rate is on par with Florida State.
ReplyDeleteI am a FAMU undergraduate who atttended law school at FSU. I had considered NCCU but I can tell you that's a riculous claim. First, it is apples and oranges to compare a North Carolina bar passage rate to a Florida bar passage rate. The overall passage rate in North Carolina is often above 80% while the overall passage rate in Florida is around 70%. Second, within North Carolina, NCCU does not do so well. It typically ranks 4th or 5th among the law schools in that state, behind Duke, UNC, Wake Forest and often even Campbell. In contrast, FSU is consistently the first or second among all Florida schools on the Florida Bar. NCCCU is a crappy law school, as the recent U.S. News & World Report confirms, by any regional or national measure. For example, its peer assessment and judges and lawyers reputation ranks are both in the bottom 10% of all law schools nationally. FAMU really ought to aim higher than that, or we should shut down the law school and focus on some discipline where we can do a good job!!!! I, for one, am tired of seeing FAMU compare itself to come of the weakest universities in the country.
That's right! When you aim low, you go lower. There is no reason for this except for that blatant ignorance by FAMU administration and Board of Trustees of the importance of meeting the ABA requirements. The ABA aims high, not low. Why should FAMU Alumni want their law school compared to TSU and other schools like it. TSU has been in trouble with the State of Texas for years and is in even more trouble now. I am sick and tired of "so-called" educated black folks telling our hard working students to aim low. The business and professional world does not accept the lowest from our communities. We have, in fact, been instructed to perform better than those who consider themselves to be better than us because of class/race before we can eve be considered on the same level. Racism exist in this country and we should not be short-changing our children.
ReplyDeleteAnon at 11:04
ReplyDeleteActually, NCCU has a really good reputation in North Carolina. The governor of the state actually went there and the school's 2006 bar passage rate was 86 percent, which is on par with other schools in the state. The fact that the school doesn't participate in the U.S. News rankings could be why it ranked so low. Besides, those rankings are skewed anyway and really dont' mean anything.
The governor of the state actually went there and the school's 2006 bar passage rate was 86 percent, which is on par with other schools in the state.
ReplyDeleteYes, but Charlie Crist attended a crappy law school too. So what? NCCU has done well from time to time but it still ranks 5th among law schools in the state. Dead last. Black folk should not have to attend the weakest law school in the state, in my opinion. FAMU needs to aim higher. Right now, I could not recommend to any young FAMU graduate that they go to law school at FAMU. Go to FSU or somewhere else.
But what we fail to remember is that schools like NCCU and other HBCU law schools are REGIONAL schools. UNC and Duke both have national reputations(they are much older schools) And honestly, after someone has been out of law school for a few years, besides better alumni connections some schools may have, does it really matter where you received your JD?
ReplyDeleteLet's be fair now, the incoming LSAT scores at FAMU and the other HBCU law schools are much lower than top tier schools. So we can't be expected to have the same first-time bar passage rate as others schools.
ReplyDeleteThe rate evens out after students retake the exams. And we end up with more black lawyers.
The ultimate goal, afterall, is to eventually pass the exam. How many folks ask their doctor or lawyer how many times it took them to pass the licensing exam? All you are concerned about is that the lawyer or doctor is licensed.
"Funny, this is exactly not the trategy that FIU and FSU have taken. FSU College of Law does not have one single member of tjhe Florida bar on its faculty, yet it has the second highest bar passage rate. Most FIU faculty are not members of the Florida Bar."
ReplyDelete4/18/2007 10:52 AM
Before you can actually make that claim, please come with the facts instead of just running that hole in your face.
Before you can actually make that claim, please come with the facts instead of just running that hole in your face.
ReplyDeleteAnd where are your facts, jerk? It is a fact that exactly one FSU faculty member is a member of the Florida Bar. Less than half of FIU's faculty are members of the Florida Bar. If you think that the answer is for FAMU to hire a faculty of Florida lawyers, regardless of whether they are scholars or have ever taught in a law schools, you have no sense of what a good law school is all about.
Better students with higher GPAs and LSAT scores would help the school out with its bar passage rate tremendously. But, that would sort of defeat the unique purpose and mission of the FAMU College of Law -- to provide an opportunity for underserved minorities-- wouldn't it?
ReplyDeleteThe number of students taking the bar exam at these universities factors into the percentage rate. Say you have five students taking the bar and all five past, well, of course, that one-hundred percent. Can we get some more information in terms of how many students at the other law schools had passing rates. Not that our passing rate is anything to cheer about, but it might shed some light on the situation. If UF had ten students (hypothethically) taking the exam, and nine passed and one didn't, all reports would say that it had, and rightfully so, 90% passing rate and a 90% passing rate looks good and reads even better in the paper, no matter how many didn't pass. So numbers and charts and graphs don't always tel a true picture. Not making any kind of excuses, for sure, but we have to look at the whole numbers, intead of a few. Can anyone provide the entire picture, please. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteWord correction on my above post: "pass" instead of "
ReplyDeletepast." I do know better and I do know the idfference betw. the two words.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteLet's be fair now, the incoming LSAT scores at FAMU and the other HBCU law schools are much lower than top tier schools. So we can't be expected to have the same first-time bar passage rate as others schools.
The rate evens out after students retake the exams. And we end up with more black lawyers.
The ultimate goal, afterall, is to eventually pass the exam. How many folks ask their doctor or lawyer how many times it took them to pass the licensing exam? All you are concerned about is that the lawyer or doctor is licensed.
4/18/2007 12:34 PM
True. I'm hoping to attend FAMU's law school. I'm going to give Dr. Ammons a chance to get things turned around. True Rattlers stick it out through thick and thin. We've seen thin, I'm sure Dr. Ammons and his team will pour it on thick after July 2. You all need to stop being to dang cynical about my alma mater. It's getting sickening!
Everyone comes on here and talks about poor leadership, bad faculty, mismanagment of funds, etc. However, what is going to help our students PASS? They all take the same bar review that other schools take and it does not seem to help. Are there some programs for the law students to help with passage? Any suggestions would help!
ReplyDeleteThe FAMU law students DO NOT take the same bar review as other students. Many do not have the finances or the type of employer that would keep them as a paid employee while they prepare for the exam. Further, other schools go above and beyond in bar exam preparation. They have funds and a budget set aside specifically for that. Their students are literally tutored. Their academic affiars department (this has been an unfilled or ineffective department at the law school) is on the ball to give their students an edge. They even go as far as getting involved in the students' environment (blocking out hotel rooms far in advance so students don't have to scramble, etc.) The fact is that other schools plan ahead and they carry a huge amount of the financial load for the students. They return they get is a high passage rate, which in turn attacts top students to their program.
ReplyDelete^^^^^^^^^ To You!
ReplyDeleteActually, you are dead wrong. From the 1L year, all law students are encouraged to lock in their Bar/Bri rates and make payments over 3 years to pay for their course. It's 3K, which equals about $500 per semester that can be paid out of your loan disbursement. This is no surprise. You have to factor this into your cost of school, just like you would textbooks, gas, meals during the day, etc. FAMU has notified us of scholarships for minorities for Bar/Bri, that whites cannot apply for.
Also, other schools do not pay for hotels. Also, the Feb. bar was IN ORLANDO, so no FAMU student needed a hotel, stop using excuses about a hotel room to justify failing.
During FAMU's first class's bar review, the school had top named bar review professors come to the school on Saturdays when Luney was there, but they stopped coming because of non-payment. Thanks Tallahassee!!!
There are other bar prep materials available in the library, and also your good 'ole outlines and text books from law school can serve as bar review materials for the small budget folk. The Bar/Bri just simplifies things for you, but your own outlines and text books and notes can serve as an adequate review if you don't have the extra cash.
So there is no excuse over finances. What we need are students who want to treat the bar exam seriously and put in the work. The difference between the FAMU students who passes the bar and those who failed is the ones who passed worked hard and took it seriously instead of goofing off and blaming everyone else.
Well, since you know the reasons for every student's failure and success, there's nothing else to say. According to you FAMU, has given above and beyond support to the students and should have a 100% passage rate. I don't have as much knowledge as you to afford me the luxury of judging ALL students and painting them with the same brush.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I did not say that other schools pay for hotel rooms, I said (just an example of some support systems provided)that they block off rooms...they make sure a certain number of rooms are available at particular hotels so that their students will not lose out on close hotels because of conventions and the like. The Orlando location was a one time occurrence. Tampa is the location all students must plan for.
...and of course if you don't like FAMU's COL Management at this time...transfer!
ReplyDeletePray that Dr. Ammons hits the ground running with the Law School, have a positive attitude, or STFU!
Well, the alumni and financial supporters of FAMU and the Law School who really care about it's success have been praying and WILL NOT shut up. In fact, they fully intend to respectfully address every issue undermining our beloved institution, in the best interest of ALL past, current and future scholars who will walk through FAMU. The success of FAMU does not depend on who is liked or not, it depends, as it does at every other institution, on who will effectively do the jobs they are paid by the State of Florida and hardworking parents to do.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.miamiherald.com/416/story/76305.html
ReplyDeletethere are the actual numbers
11 more FAMU lawyers with a degree? how about actually mailing our degrees to us! we graduated in feb. passed the bar, and still dont have a diploma! hey, thats progress! and not to mention that some people passed the actual exam but can't practice law because the dean hasn't sent final transcripts in yet.
ReplyDeletecall her and ask 4 the documents!
ReplyDeleteThe Florida Bar does not accept official documents (transcripts, etc.) unless it is mailed directly from the institution. This is a problem they have experienced with FAMU before. Even if the student had the document in hand it is of no use to The Florida Bar. Processing is stalled until documentation is officially received from the institution.
ReplyDeleteI'm disappointed that a person from an HBCU would bring down the NCCU School of Law because of the US News Report. If you used that as a benchmark to value an edcuation then your own undergraduate degree would be worth little unless you attended a top PWI. However, you know better. So why use that very standard that devalues decent schools to disparage what is currently the best HBCU law school.
ReplyDeleteNCCU Law is an HBCU which makes it an easy target. Also, there's plenty of non-HBCU's with worse statistics. Currently, I don't think it's so much that NCCU is a bad school. It's that NC has extremely good law schools and very good students at those schools. UNC, Duke, and Wake Forest have some of the best law schools in the country concentrated in the same state. Campbell had incredibly savvy administrators that were inventive enough to figure out how to increase it's bar passage rates. NC law schools are stronger than most, so in relative terms NCCU is not as bad as it looks on paper.
Also, those other schools predominately give an opportunity to attend law school to privileged middle class whites or the children of established professionals. NCCU gives an opportunity to people of all demographics. What do you expect? NCCU usually has working class students and those other schools have students from wealthy families. The latter has more tools not necessarily more ability because they're been prepped to the point we fool ourselves into thinking they're actually inherently better.
FAMU has it's problems but don't go dragging down another HBCU because you're not happy. You have to be careful in the words you use because someone could spread your ill-advised words. I wonder what has happened to our people when we associate HBCUs with low standards. It's a shame and it perpetuates the bias against black education. I'm not defending those that accept low standards but we cannot devalue what we have either. We're quick to assume that white is right.
I have just wrapped up my first year at FAMU. I have to say that this has been one of the best years of my life. Yes, the school has its problems. However, EVERY organization has its problems. To say otherwise is to say human beings can do no wrong. The thing is that some organizations are better at covering it up than others. Another thing is that FAMU is an easy target since its a minority PUBLIC law school which is funded by taxpayer dollars. Moving along, if it weren't for FAMU and the dedicated people over here, I would never had a shot at my dream. It is truly a big family and I cannot being to tell you how grateful I am for the professors and students I've met and the law I have learned. Everything is unfolding as it should, we will prevail. For all the naysayers, I say keep it coming, resistance is evidence of progress.
ReplyDeleteBarbara Bernier as "Dean" of the College of Law. This would be a mistake for faculty, staff and students. She does not care about the Law school or the university.
ReplyDeleteHas anyone meet the new Associate Dean of Admissions. That ball headed, flip-flop wearing, tee shirt wearing, unprofessional, got fired from her last job self.....she was not needed and nasty to everyone in the area.
ReplyDeleteOh, let me guess...the comment about Bernier as Dean...possibly an attempt to smear her with some vague nonsense...could it be one of the gang of three. Jealously is an ugly thing amoung the incompetent.
ReplyDeleteIs anyone concerned about the ABA? Witnout final approval none of us can even take a bar exam so the passage rate will not matter! Let's get serious about this now! Our last chance to take the bar may be Feb 08
ReplyDeleteI hear you about the date with the ABA. Does anyone know exactly when this decision will happen?
ReplyDelete