As usual, Florida State University’s latest call for “changes” in the joint College of Engineering is nothing but a ploy to run FAMU out of Innovation Park. FAMU shouldn’t budge.
In yesterday’s Tallahassee Democrat, FSU Provost Larry Abele made his university’s intentions perfectly clear. He wants FAMU to pack up, leave the shared COE, and relocate to a new one that will be built on its own campus.
According to Abele, the money would come from $30M in Public Education Capital Outlay dollars that have been designated for a third phase of the Innovation Park E-College.
It’s incredible that Abele and his boss, T.K. Wetherell, actually expect FAMUans to take this suggestion seriously. The problems with this idea are more than obvious.
Problem #1: Accreditation Compliance
Within the current E-College facility, every degree program meets the lab space and learning technology requirements for the Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology.
There is no guarantee that a single $30M building on FAMU’s campus would be up to par with the two state-of-the-art COE buildings in Innovation Park that already meet ABET standards. In fact, in the state’s current budget climate, the $30M number could be cut down to a much smaller one.
FAMU wants to protect its ability to offer all the engineering Ph.D. programs to which it has access under the current E-College. For that reason, it cannot afford to take a chance on new facility that might not even meet the ABET standards that are necessary for those degrees.
Problem #2: Operational Funding
The $10.4M that FAMU receives for the current E-College is based on that facility’s academic, staff, faculty, and maintenance needs. If FAMU signs away its rights to the Innovation Park buildings and goes into a much smaller building that can’t house as many ABET-accredited degree programs, the Florida Legislature will institute a proportional reduction in the annual operating budget appropriation.
Additionally, state Sen. Alfred “Al” Lawson estimates that it would take around $100M to provide FAMU with an E-College that’s comparable to the one in Innovation Park. That does not include the recurring revenue required to hire all the new personnel.
Who would pay that price tag? The State University System budget is expected to shrink by another multi-million margin in 2009-2010.
So, let’s assume that FAMU receives the entire $30M expected to be available in PECO dollars. The only way to guarantee that FAMU gets the remaining $70M would be for FSU to forfeit that amount from its own legislative appropriation. That’s highly unlikely.
No one is forcing FSU to stay
Abele’s proposal is also suspect because if he and T.K. truly believed that they could persuade the Florida Legislature to create new engineering school comparable to the jointly managed one, they probably would have taken that option long ago. FSU doesn’t need FAMU’s approval to ask legislators to build a brand new College of Engineering. However, the statewide budget squeeze and fact that FSU already has a full slate of engineering Ph.D.s in the current school make that idea a tough sell at the state capitol.
In short, FAMU’s position on this matter should be very simple: If FSU doesn’t want to share a College of Engineering with FAMU, then it’s free to ask the Florida Legislature to create a new one for FSU-only. But FAMU cannot and must not let FSU coax or muscle it out of the current E-College in Innovation Park.
Also see: Engineering school critical to FAMU’s STEM Ph.D. ambitions
T.K.’s promises on E-College don’t cut it
T.K. to FAMU: Get Out!!!
In yesterday’s Tallahassee Democrat, FSU Provost Larry Abele made his university’s intentions perfectly clear. He wants FAMU to pack up, leave the shared COE, and relocate to a new one that will be built on its own campus.
According to Abele, the money would come from $30M in Public Education Capital Outlay dollars that have been designated for a third phase of the Innovation Park E-College.
It’s incredible that Abele and his boss, T.K. Wetherell, actually expect FAMUans to take this suggestion seriously. The problems with this idea are more than obvious.
Problem #1: Accreditation Compliance
Within the current E-College facility, every degree program meets the lab space and learning technology requirements for the Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology.
There is no guarantee that a single $30M building on FAMU’s campus would be up to par with the two state-of-the-art COE buildings in Innovation Park that already meet ABET standards. In fact, in the state’s current budget climate, the $30M number could be cut down to a much smaller one.
FAMU wants to protect its ability to offer all the engineering Ph.D. programs to which it has access under the current E-College. For that reason, it cannot afford to take a chance on new facility that might not even meet the ABET standards that are necessary for those degrees.
Problem #2: Operational Funding
The $10.4M that FAMU receives for the current E-College is based on that facility’s academic, staff, faculty, and maintenance needs. If FAMU signs away its rights to the Innovation Park buildings and goes into a much smaller building that can’t house as many ABET-accredited degree programs, the Florida Legislature will institute a proportional reduction in the annual operating budget appropriation.
Additionally, state Sen. Alfred “Al” Lawson estimates that it would take around $100M to provide FAMU with an E-College that’s comparable to the one in Innovation Park. That does not include the recurring revenue required to hire all the new personnel.
Who would pay that price tag? The State University System budget is expected to shrink by another multi-million margin in 2009-2010.
So, let’s assume that FAMU receives the entire $30M expected to be available in PECO dollars. The only way to guarantee that FAMU gets the remaining $70M would be for FSU to forfeit that amount from its own legislative appropriation. That’s highly unlikely.
No one is forcing FSU to stay
Abele’s proposal is also suspect because if he and T.K. truly believed that they could persuade the Florida Legislature to create new engineering school comparable to the jointly managed one, they probably would have taken that option long ago. FSU doesn’t need FAMU’s approval to ask legislators to build a brand new College of Engineering. However, the statewide budget squeeze and fact that FSU already has a full slate of engineering Ph.D.s in the current school make that idea a tough sell at the state capitol.
In short, FAMU’s position on this matter should be very simple: If FSU doesn’t want to share a College of Engineering with FAMU, then it’s free to ask the Florida Legislature to create a new one for FSU-only. But FAMU cannot and must not let FSU coax or muscle it out of the current E-College in Innovation Park.
Also see: Engineering school critical to FAMU’s STEM Ph.D. ambitions
T.K.’s promises on E-College don’t cut it
T.K. to FAMU: Get Out!!!
The Criminoles can build their own E-School in Killearn or Quincy. TK needs to get over himself.
ReplyDeleteI absolutely completely agree with this editorial. This is the attitude FAMU should have about the E-College.
ReplyDeleteFSU butted-in in the first place--they are perfectly welcome to butt-out.
If I'm not mistaken, The E-School was built for FAMU anyway...FAMU Administrators and Legislators would be unwise to even consider such a move. They need to conduct some serious research about the rights that FAMU have to the E-school.
ReplyDeleteFSU knows damn well that the legislature isn't going to fund two full blown E-Schools in Tallahassee. They are really trying to treat us like we're stupid.
ReplyDeleteWhat's the first rule for making a deal with the devil?
ReplyDelete2:26 Rule Number 1....DON'T!
ReplyDeleteIt was Florida Agricultural and Mechanical University first. If fsu want a school so bad then leave...don't worry we got this.
ReplyDeleteLOL. What would the dept of Justice say about this one? Where is Debra Austin on this one. Ol' boy from UNF, what is his role? And ya know that FIU's president is stepping down. Florida Education needs an Barack Obama post haste!
ReplyDeleteTo whom and how should we respond to this one RN?
ReplyDeleteRN doesnt need to answere that one 6:38PM WE NEED TO LET AMMONS KNOW THAT WE ARE AGAINST ANY SEPERATION WITH OUT REPERATIONS!!! When Castell was trying to give the COE away the Alumni President was in town and the FAMU faithful had thier fire and pitch forks! Now, while I fully support Dr. Ammons and my money proves this, I do not blindly support any man over FAMU! This move is wrong, period! And as FAMUANS we must be willing to stand up for what we believe in and that means sometimes we have to stand up to those we support.
ReplyDeleteFAMU's next Board of Trustees meeting is scheduled for Dec. 2nd. Call/email the trustees and let them know how you feel.
ReplyDeleteAlso, FSU's administration is the one that has called for FAMU to leave Innovation Park. FAMU's administration has not issued a public response to those comments, at this time.
It's really amazing to me that you all are on the verge of getting a brand new College of Engineering of your own, on your own campus, where you won't have to deal with FSU--whom you obviously hate dealing with in the 1st place--and yet you still complain. The guesstimate of 100 mil has been thrown out, and IMO that is the starting point for negotiations. You wouldn't be left hanging out to dry, especially not in the current political climate. I can understand where your skepticism comes from, but I think you're basically hanging on to an old way of thinking instead of looking forward and being proactive, looking at the massive amount of good that could come from such a project of your own.
ReplyDeleteYou wouldn't be left hanging out to dry, especially not in the current political climate.
ReplyDeleteWhatever. FSU is clinging on to the Innovation Park school because it knows whichever university tries to leave is going to get shafted.
No thanks! We're not taking the bait!
Whatever. FSU's name and money is what has brought most of the industry (such as it is) to Innovation Park in the 1st place. Without FSU, no Mag Lab, no CAPS, no COAPS, no big scientific, business or technological draws whatsoever. So let's not play the "who deserves it more" game, because FSU has outshone FAMU on that front.
ReplyDeleteBesides, the deal on the table for FAMU at this point appears to be a much better deal that what FSU would get if it chose to vacate Innovation park. FAMU has positioned itself to have its own COE on campus in Tally should they leave innovation park. No such deal exists for FSU, who would presumably have to relocate to the Panama City Campus if they are forced to leave IP, since there is virtually no land available on or near the Tally campus for FSU to build.
It's a shame you guys are so afraid of progress.
Ummm...that's not progress.
ReplyDeleteProgress would have to be made on our own terms-not Weatherell's qualms. Because you see, it takes more than one party to make a deal.
Again, if it's so important for FSU to have their own COE then they should do just that...get their own. It's not rocket science. If they have to go through so much trouble to oust FAMU then they should put that energy into building their own "ranked" facility. And for your information, "the past" would involve Florida State and their superiority complex trying to make another attempt to usurp yet another program from Florida A&M instead of establishing their own.
And you are in fact playing the "who deserves it more game" by suggesting that FSU has a larger stake in the College of Engineering- and we can play that back and forth all the live-long day. So spare all of us the bull and take the energy that you have taken to convince us that FAMU deserves to be "shortchanged" and use it to raise money for your beloved institution and their proposed ventures.
Hubba 6:31! and you know 11:09, it;s not just about the money. Academic programs are at issue. And why does spilt program mean split facilities? Because you don't have good credit with us, State! It's not us, it's you. Be a great University, nevermind looking like one.
ReplyDeleteLet me ask you something. Do you think the COE is fine, in its present state? Do you believe that FAMU is getting what it needs out of the partnership at present? If not, then do you believe that changes and progress toward future goals can be made while the partnership remains intact?
ReplyDeleteSeems to me like NEITHER party is getting what it needs out of the present situation.It appears that Ammons agrees. It also seems to me like the partnership may have run its course, and that both parties would be best served to go their own way. Ergo, in order to PROGRESS, the split is necessary.
This isn't a situation of FAMU being happy with the COE while FSU is not. So it's silly to look at it as though FSU is somehow "pushing" FAMU out the door of its own school, which is what it sounds like listening to all the whining going on here.
As far as some supposed "superiority complex"...that's BS. Fact of the matter is that FSU has, in fact, been the lead partner on most of the ventures in IP. Which should get them some degree of respect. If you don't want to acknowledge that fact, that's your prerogative; but that doesn't make it any less true, nor does it make FSU arrogant for expecting to be recognized for their efforts and achievements.
Look, there has been nothing "official" on the table as of yet. The 100 mil figure was thrown out there as a round dollar amount that would set up FAMU quite nicely. 30 mil seems to be in the bag, but obviously no one is asking FAMU to bail out for a measly 30 mil. There will be negotiations over the next few months, and hopefully many more meetings and proposals to follow. No one expects FAMU to agree to a deal that would be harmful to them.
BUT, it's obvious that it's time for a split one way or another. And it's just amazing to me that you guys are poo-pooing the idea even before anything gets put on the table. You're letting your hatred of FSU get in the way of improving your own university, and that's just sad.
No such deal exists for FSU, who would presumably have to relocate to the Panama City Campus if they are forced to leave IP, since there is virtually no land available on or near the Tally campus for FSU to build.
ReplyDeleteAnd what's wrong with FSU building its E-School in Panama City? Or, what's wrong with FSU building its E-School somewhere off the main campus area in Tally?
There's plenty of land by Chiles High School off of Thomasville Rd/US 319. You could even take the plot that used hold the Channel 27/WTXL studios.
Again, it's interesting that others have to spend so much of their time by going out of their way to try and convince FAMU that relinquishing the COE to State, is a good deal, instead of putting energy into creating their own program. Even if both parties are unhappy with state of current affairs, there is a more professional, and respectful way of handing the situation-like the two institutions having fruitful exchanges rather than presidents making their wishes known through articles on the Democrat and the like.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, Florida State chose the latter and now of course "progress" that could be made will have little chance of happening because of the counterproductive measures taken by T.K. and his cronies. Those supposed future "negotiations" will never see the light of day until Weatherell and Ammons sit down and make them come into fruition- and that won't happen as long as the only discussions to be had are made between the respective boards of trustees and their political allies.
Furthermore, it is not "silly" but rather quite obvious that FSU is trying to remove FAMU from the picture. What is "silly" is to make an attempt to prove that FSU is "helping" to court FAMU's interests by "suggesting" that FAMU create a new program and facility in order for FSU to serve their own interests. It seems that Florida State has had a difficult time in handling themselves in a civilized manner when it comes to them getting what they want. They tend to dance rather than have interactions between themselves and the other parties in question.
Florida State's "BS" superiority complex was the catalyst for the foundation of the FAMU/FSU college of engineering when FAMU decided to begin their own program. It was FSU who lobbied to tack on to FAMU's new program rather than begin their own at that time because they knew then that two colleges of engineering in Tallahassee would have little chance of getting approved. So for FSU to publicly suggest that they keep the current facilities rather than make plans to actually begin their own program is just their way of doing business-nothing new there...just politics as usual.
No one is denying that changes have to be made, but in 2008 not much has changed as far as the way that FSU has chosen to go about making those changes. Florida State has had no problems in making sure that they are recognized for their achievements- they certainly don't need our help there. But it's unfortunate that they have to discount FAMU's in the process. Maybe more "progress" would be made if there was more deference for the great things that have already taken place. Most FAMUans will tell you that we don't spend most of our energy discounting Florida State's academic achievements at our expense because we know that it gets us absolutely nowhere.
Again, how in the hewl can they demand that we love our own program. Those b~tches down the street are pissing me off.
ReplyDeleteIt's respectfully named The FAMU/FSU College of Engineering...not the other way around. If we leave, I'm confident that Dr. Ammons will be the bigger winner of this issue.
1:58 is was our program first. Their ass was invited to participate.
ReplyDeleteFrom my understanding, the E-School was built developed and established by FAMU. It thrived and had great quality. FSU wanted one so they elbowed thier way to a stake in it. Before Senators go around making outlandish suggestions, they should do a history lesson first.
ReplyDeleteI thought that I made that clear when I said that it was FSU who lobbied to tack on to FAMU's new program rather than begin their own engineering program. If my statement was vague I apologize; that was the point that I actually meant to convey.:)
ReplyDeleteAnyway a wise( or really cynical) person once said that those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. FAMU must never forget that while times may be different; the game is still the same. They just try to dress it up with new rhetoric!